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Dungeon Defending

September 5, 2012 - 4:44pm -- Xerin
Dungeon Defending

I’ve read of two common criticisms levelled at Guild Wars 2’s dungeons.  The first: It’s too difficult.  The second: It’s too unstructured.  Both of these criticisms I couldn’t find further from the truth after completing Ascalon Catacombs (Explorable) on my first try.

I will freely admit that the dungeons in Guild Wars 2 are very different to anything I’ve ever played in an MMOG, vastly different in fact and yet quite forgiving in many ways. While challenging, I don’t believe the dungeons venture into the impossible (like many have been stating) and I don’t believe they are unstructured; quite the opposite.  Without composure and a high level of organisation I’ve no doubt they could be incredibly challenging, especially to pick-up groups, but with a modicum of control and a sensible approach to each scenario they’re relatively easy.

To address the first issue, difficulty is incredibly subjective.  What is difficult to some isn’t to others and I can appreciate the mammoth task that ArenaNet have on their hands in finding that fine line.  I’ve always preferred my dungeons to be as difficult as possible as the content is often designed to prolong the life of the game.  If they aren’t difficult and are completed easily, the same people would likely be complaining that there is nothing left to do.  The discussion of difficulty is also hard to understand when we are only a week into Guild Wars 2’s launch. 

The removal of the holy trinity see’s an entirely different approach needed to boss and trash mob encounters, something it seems many simply cannot get their head around.  I’ve taken part in pick-up dungeon groups and it’s frightening to see every situation approached as a ‘tank-and-spank’ with four of the party charging in and hoping for the best (only to complain when they die).  Tactics of this nature are doomed to fail and it’s paramount for all party members to adapt and approach a situation sensibly. 

Choosing one member to lead and discussing tactics and group synergy is incredibly important: Do we need high damage? Should we take X or Y elite skill? Are there any bundles that can help? Is it a condition heavy encounter? What are the animations to be wary of? All of these things contribute to the success of the party and failing to acknowledge or exhaust such possibilities will easily see a group wipe.

Destiny's Edge Concept Art

We approached each area of Ascalon Catacombs cautiously with our Guardian as the lead (he could take the most damage).  We would also have a three or four minute chat before each boss to discuss possibilities and outcomes.  I’ll freely admit that on several bosses we died but we never wiped entirely.  Quickly reviving team mates is just as important as the build you use or the tactics you choose. 

This brings me to the forgiving part of the dungeons in Guild Wars 2.  Firstly, Waypoints can be used in the dungeon if you die entirely, meaning you can quickly portal and run back to the fight and still stand a chance of succeeding (though we rarely needed this).  Secondly, many of the encounters will reset if you failed the specific requirement.  One element of AC Explorable sees you defending your guide with a series of traps and if you don’t defend her she will die and the encounter will reset.  You can then repeat the scenario over and over until you’ve got it right.  The fact your armour can also be repaired in the dungeon and the boss encounter can be triggered only moments after failing means failure becomes a learning curve rather than a punishment.

“Shall we try this trap setup?”

“Shall we stand here this time?”

“Shall we place two people here and you three there?”

You begin to approach such encounters methodically, recognising what works and what doesn’t in a very short space of time and breathe a huge sigh of relief (and a grin of satisfaction) when you’ve finally cracked it.

Another encounter that saw us struggle was a series of burrows that appear one after another that we simply couldn’t kill quickly enough, that would see our entire party overwhelmed.  After a quick re-group we adapted our builds for maximum damage (you’ve got to love Time Warp) and AOE effects to ensure they were killed as quickly as possible and sure enough, we easily succeeded.

Lastly is structure and group composition, which requires little discussion.  Unlike other MMOG’s where roles and responsibilities were clearly defined, based on the profession or class you chose, I can appreciate how this removal has caused some upset.  I’ve taken part in pickup groups where people don’t actually know what they should do or when they should do it.  Seeing a warrior state “I’ll tank” or an engineer state “I’ll heal” does make me wince as this is no longer about the individual but instead group behaviour and truly working as a team.

Some of the key elements people need to learn are:

  1. Knowing complimentary builds/skills based on the other professions with you.
  2. Knowing your own profession, its limitations and strengths.
  3. Knowing when to dodge (absolutely paramount).
  4. Knowing when to attack and retreat.
  5. Knowing when to revive a fallen party member.
  6. Knowing when to use your heal and not waste it.

Guild Wars 2 differs in that a group’s success or failure can no longer be attributed to the individual (tank or healer) and instead is a collective effort by all.  Accepting responsibility for your own healing, your own avoidance of damage through dodging and your own reactions to revive downed party members quickly is what Guild Wars 2’s dungeons are all about.  Failing to do just one of the six above will, like other factors mentioned, see you fail repeatedly.  I think that to many players can be hard to stomach, especially when the blame might lye at your own feet rather than at someone else’s.


For more on dungeons in Guild Wars 2 be sure to check out our Dungeon Survival Guide and Ascalonian Catacombs Story Mode Guide.

Comments

tarian
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Joined: Jun 30 2012
XP: 55

I agree that people need to take some serious time to adapt to these new dungeons.  These are the most foreign things in GW2 in comparison to everything else in the genre, the loss of the trinity, and the creation of encounters with the intent of people working together, rather than a couple people working together and everyone else doing their own thing, is a new line of thought that people need to adapt to.

The AC at release, is at least 20x easier than the AC we experienced in the beta, I need to get that out in the open.  The AC we play in story mode at this very moment, is much, much, much easier.  In beta, even with voice chat and coordination, story mode could still wipe the floor with you.  The boss fights were also more complicated and had three+ mechanics that we don't see today.

Like what has been said in this article though, most people I've seen whining about dungeons being too hard, even within my guild, have been charging into fights blindly and then whining like little children when that doesn't work.  The dungeons were never supposed to be steamroll, because you don't need to do them, they're completely optional, and playing or not playing through them has zero effect on player power progression, which a lot of people still either don't believe or are entirely ignorant of (to their own fault I have to say).

AC to me was a lot of fun, and it has had some of the harder fights in the game.  The traps were lots of fun, and the dungeon in general was difficult, but still entertaining.  Unprovoked difficulty, just for the sake of difficulty is a big no-no in my book, and a few fights (such as the spider boss in TA) cross that line.  Other fights, like the second boss in CoF (the one with the weapons) has such an incredible subtlety to their difficulty that it reminds me of WoW's Ulduar hard modes, you have an easy way, hard way, and a flat out wrong way.  The flat out wrong way will wipe you, and it'll do it quickly and without remorse, and you should learn from that experience that doing what you did was wrong.  To be honest, the first time I did that boss I mentioned from CoF for the first time, my group wiped, three times, with absolutely no idea why, and we had little issue with all of the earlier dungeons.  Then, one pull we did something on accident, and suddenly the encounter changed drastically, and then everything clicked and made sense.

I think far too many people are used to be spoon fed strategies, with the rigid forms of the holy trinity to hold onto and assign jobs in a fight; once they get over that and think a bit, they and the game will be better off for it.

 

I deeply hope though that Anet doesn't nerf dungeons, like Blizz did shortly after the release of Cata, just because kids are unwilling to try correctly.

What are you willing to sacrifice?

trenshod
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Joined: Aug 6 2012
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I have yet to do a dungeon in the game my concern isn't necessarily the difficulty specifically but the time it takes to complete. I truly dislike getting pulled into instanced events that could last a hour or longer. I understand the dieing and wiping part but if there so much content to get through that it takes more than a hour it just doesn't seem worth the effort. If I have done my homework correctly the dungeons in the game are the pinnacle of the PvE content. If things are hard and they are taking a hour or hours to complete it doesn't sound like something I want to take part in anyways.

I'll just stick with quest leveling and come and go from the game as my motivation to play sways back and forth :(.

Viryn
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Joined: Aug 23 2012
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AC was one of the most difficult dungeons I think I have ever done in an MMO.  I'm not saying it wasn't fun, it was just incredibly difficult.

Viryn Valdoran - Human Ranger | Blackgate server

Wedge7
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Joined: May 1 2012
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Completed AC story mode last night with guildies, and had a blast. We were all on mumble chatting about what to do, and that really helped. We wiped once by the lovers (a tough encounter! Confusion is a nasty condition), but then went back in and finished them off. The rest of the dungeon was tough, but easily doable. We'll be trying out explorable mode soon, which I'm relishing. 

Lewis B
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Joined: Apr 24 2012
XP: 830

Use the stones.  That's all I'm saying ;) 

JSmooth
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Joined: Sep 10 2012
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My experience with AC explorable (ghost eater). The fight to the boss was a struggle. But, we made it and breathed a sigh of relief.

1st pull: The boss summons 3 of us to him at the same time and proceeds to bladestorm/whirlwind us into downed mode. We had no time to react. The other 2 grp members were shortly dispatched.

2nd pull: the boss did not insta-kill us right at the start. We lasted maybe 20 seconds. I tried to kite/CC  one of the adds, but again was summoned and bladestormed into downed mode. I could not run away and did not have time to use a defensive skill.  The party wiped shortly after and disbanded.

The CM level 40 dungeon is considerably easier than AC, which seems reversed. The first dungeon should be a transition phase to ease you into the process.

As an aside. I like the idea of waypoints in dungeons to make them more forgiving. However, I believe they should disable that feature during boss fights (and tune the difficulty accordingly). Yes, you CAN just throw bodies at bosses till you eventually kill them. But corpse-walking over and over through a boss fight is not fun.

JSmooth
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Forgot to put... That was the first boss we came to... fighting on a platform over the water.